Talk:Happy Science

Does this article adhere to NPOV?

I have read the history of this article. There are some things that can be called into question regarding the neutrality of this article. It appears that this article has editorial bias - it seems to "take sides". Breaking this rule is against one of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia. While many of the edits have focused on guaranteeing one of the other principles - verifiability, it seems to have been at the expense of promoting a one-sided opinion of the subject, which is definitely against the rules. Also, many of the articles cited are outdated considering that pertinent developments are ongoing. In other words, there are many opinions sourced from current events or passing knowledge of the subject, and it is questionable whether they can be considered as reliable sources. I hope someone is reasonable enough to discuss this without closing the issue. If it is done so immediately, which seems happen quite often on this page, it will only prove that it really is not NPOV as I have made a thoughtful request here. I have quite a few issues I'd like to discuss, as I have reviewed 10 years of edits on this article. Enscion (talk) 07:03, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Do discuss then here. Zezen (talk) 08:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Enscion. The article is:

• Cites as an unbiased source media articles that are in the midst of a legal battle with the organization.
• Cites as sources only the claims of entities with conflicts of interest in the organization
• Cites sources that have obvious false information about the topic
• Draws a single conclusion from a collection of these sources and includes it in the lead sentence

Despite presenting these problems, it continues to use clearly inadequate sources and lacks a neutral point of view. --Cadenza025 (talk) 10:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The Gay Science

Reprinted from User talk:Cadenza025

[Copypasted discussion removed]

A search on Google Scholar shows that The Gay Science has 19,700 hits, The joyful Wisdom has 845 hits, and The Joyous Science has only 186 hits. Even though the translation of The Joyous Science and Happy Science are similar, it is unlikely to be confused with The Gay Science itself. Cadenza025 (talk) 09:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Another, more useful piece of evidence I found was that The Joyous Science had only 25 views in the past, while The Gay Science had 846,086 views. If the hatnote is needed for a mere 0.003% of views, then, as mentioned earlier, a hatnote for The Gay Science is needed for all other branches of the sciences. The evidence is here (snapshot).

--Cadenza025 (talk) 07:33, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Bonadea: If you still think the hatnote is necessary, please feel free to explain why after you have added The Gay Science hatnote to each article about science. Thanks,--Cadenza025 (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I have removed the copypasted content again. The best way to refer to a previous discussion held elsewhere is to provide a link leading straight to that discussion; I have now done so above. If there are any posts that you made here after copying the content, feel free to restore them. There are situations where it is appropriate to move other users' posts to a different page, but there is no reason to do so when a discussion is simply continued elsewhere. Please respect requests from your fellow editors when they ask you not to move their posts to another page. Thank you. --bonadea contributions talk 09:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I respect your request. I've restored only my own comments that only exist on this page. So please don't remove the evidence to refute you. If there is a policy that allows such behavior, please indicate it. Regards, --Cadenza025 (talk) 11:07, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

The opinion on The Jakarta Post

Happy_Science#cite_note-thejakartapost-4 (Happy Science, a new cult offers celebrity guide to heaven / (the original)) As is obvious to all, this anonymous source is clearly unreliable. Please only comment if you disagree with it, if not, we will move on. Regards, --Cadenza025 (talk) 04:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Who is "we", and what does "we will move on" mean? It is not at all obvious why you consider it to be an unreliable source. --bonadea contributions talk 05:51, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

It looks like the source is an opinion piece, which isn’t reliable for statements of fact. Opinion pieces can be used sparingly if the viewpoint is clearly attributed to the author, but this opinion piece has no author. Politanvm ^talk 06:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, the statement it supports is that HS has been characterised as a cult by media in Indonesia. Context always matters. --bonadea contributions talk 06:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Context always matters. Reliability always matters too. It's not that one takes precedence over the other. If we disregard the reliability of our sources, Wikipedia will lose its reliability as an encyclopedia. We are not playing word games. Please clarify your own opinion on whether the source is reliable or not. --Cadenza025 (talk) 08:48, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

"we" means the people involved in editing the page, "we will move on" means "we will take down this source". So you think the source is reliable, right? Is there anyone else? --Cadenza025 (talk) 06:25, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

If there is no objection, I will remove the source within 24 hours. --Cadenza025 (talk) 08:49, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Please do not do that. This is an ongoing discussion, and there is no urgency. And it is clearly not the case that there is no objection! There has been a fairly extensive sourcing discussion, which you can read in the talk page archive, Talk:Happy_Science/Archive_1; as you can see, there is a general consensus among experienced editors with no connection to HS, in favour of the existing sourcing. Following Politavm's comment above I am on the fence about this, but it requires more thought and input. Repeated talk page posts requesting reactions from other editors, demanding a particular kind of reaction, or setting a deadline, have a chilling effect on the discussion. There are six million other articles on Wikipedia, and so far you have only edited articles about this topic; this means that it would be better if you left controversial edits such as this one to more experienced editors. If you want other opinions on the Jakarta Post source, you can always post to the Reliable Sources noticeboard about it. --bonadea contributions talk 09:30, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Link to RSN discssion --bonadea contributions talk 10:32, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I’ve made the edit suggested by Austronesier in the discussion, but welcome any further refinements, as I don’t have that much experience using explanatory footnotes. Politanvm ^talk 04:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I object to Politanvm's heavy-handed editing without a rational refutation of the two points: the context makes it likely that WaPo's reference to cult is a quote from the NYT (at least, we can't rule out that possibility), and the NYT's reference to cult is a quote from JT. In context, it is highly likely that the "international media" WaPo is describing is referring to the NYT, and this should not be mentioned.As the text clearly shows, in fact, the relevant part of WaPo is a summary of the NYT article. This isn't just a play on words, because it's very important, please provide clear evidence that WaPo does not actually refer to the NYT, not your wishful thinking. --Cadenza025 (talk) 05:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Politanvm – that looks good, and is clearly backed up by a very strong consensus. I moved the references from the lead to the explanatory note. --bonadea contributions talk 06:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

This is what I had in mind, looks good now. –Austronesier (talk) 09:28, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Controversy

Maybe these should be added to `Controversy` too. I'd like to hear from you fellow editors. Thank you. --Cadenza025 (talk) 12:50, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

In 1996, Kodansha, one of the largest publishers in Japan, published a defamatory article about the construction of a religious facility by Happy Science.[1] Happy Science filed a lawsuit, and the court questioned two witnesses, including the reporter, who pointed out in detail that there were various questions about the statements; in 2000, the Tokyo District Court ruled in favor of Happy Science, finding that the article was not based on facts.[2][3]

[1] Shūkan Gendai January 1996
[2] Tokyo District Court Judgment of July 18, 2000, Case No. (Wa) 876 of 1997, claiming damages.
[3] Tokyo High Court Decision of May 31, 2001, Case No. (Ne) 4367 of 2000, appeal for compensation for damages.

In 2007, Shukan Shincho (magazine) published an article titled "Happy Science is intimidating and terrorizing elementary school principals and PTA presidents.[4] As a result of a lawsuit filed by Happy Science, the court ruled that the content of the article was neither true nor that there were reasonable grounds for believing it to be true.[5]

[4] Shukan Shincho, New Year's special issue on January 4 and 11, 2007
[5] Tokyo District Court Decision of October 1, 2008

In 2012, Bungeishunjū has published an article claiming that there were female problems in this organization.[6] Happy Science filed a lawsuit claiming that it was false. The court found Bungeishunjū responsible for publishing the defamatory article with no basis in fact, and ordered it to pay damages and publish a full-page apology advertisement in the magazine. On February 5, 2013, in an apology ad, Bungeishunjū stated that "all of which were contrary to the facts."[7]

[6] Shūkan Bunshun, July 19, 2012 issue, released on July 5, 2012
[7] Apology advertisement, http://justice-irh.jp/docs/20150205_bunshun-apology.pdf

Are there any secondary independent sources covering these lawsuits? Otherwise this is original research based on primary sources (court cases and the “controversial” articles themselves). Politanvm ^talk 13:15, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is any media that can cover this kind of evil of theirs. The article is seriously lacking in neutrality. Is there any way to source court cases? Thank you. --Cadenza025 (talk) 13:31, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the organisation "evil" even if they have been involved in some very controversial activities. Anyway, notable court cases are very often covered in secondary sources: newspapers, academic papers, books, documentary films. The only coverage I find of any of these court cases in English-language media is a brief mention in this article, which has no details but does say "... its five-year court battle against Kodansha, a major Japanese publishing company that had dared to publish an article in one of its magazines which was seen as insulting to Okawa." I'm guessing that is the first of your examples above. We couldn't add any details that are not in the secondary source, but a mention of the fact that the group has engaged in litigation against news media might be relevant. --bonadea contributions talk 13:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I understand. I’ll think about this. Thank you for finding it, bonadea. —Cadenza025 (talk) 14:58, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Diverse attestations of usage of the term "cult"

Vice

A Japanese Cult That Believes Its Leader Is an Alien From Venus Is Speaking at CPAC

@Politanvm This article says It also includes the political head of a Japanese religious cult that promotes nationalism, xenophobia and the belief that its leader is the reincarnation of an alien from Venus who created life on earth millions of years ago. But he has nothing to do with Happy Science. It was over ten years ago that he was the head of HRP, for only two weeks. The other things it says are also bullshit. Could you please explain where do you find credibility in this article, which is written as if it were the current head? --Cadenza025 (talk) 06:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Austronesier I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that. You said There’s no reason to believe WaPo is only talking about the NYT article that quotes JT. Other non-Japanese media have described Happy Science as a cult in their own words, including Vice and The Daily Beast among the others already cited in the Wikipedia article. I would be grateful for your opinion. Why did you trust that article? --Cadenza025 (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The Independent

[19] Japanese cult representative is speaking for the 10th year in a row at CPAC
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/cpac-japanese-cult-leader-hrioaki-jay-aeb-b1808229.html

Just like Vice, this article also states that On the same day the Conservative Political Action Conference rolled a literal golden idol of Donald Trump onto the floor, a representative for a Japanese cult - whose leader is viewed is a messianic figure from the planet Venus - will address the crowd for the tenth year in a row.

As mentioned earlier, he was the head of HRP for only two weeks, more than ten years ago. This is a clear mistake, even though it should be obvious with a little research, and it is evidence that they have not done their due diligence. @Politanvm @Bonadea: Could you tell me why you found this article to be trustworthy?

Comments

Do we include any statements from Vice and The Independent in this article in Wikivoice? No. We do not even cite them individually. We present them as easily verifiable attestations (wikt:attestation, definition 4) of usage of the term "cult" in international media. So why do you even ask whether we "trust" Vice and The Independent in this context? This is once again a fallacy and an implicit straw argument. We trust the Washington Post (and do even more so after an effortless web search for attestations), and that's why we paraphrase it Wikivoice here. –Austronesier (talk) 09:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

So you admit that the article itself could be wrong? So you don't accept the credibility of the article because it has nothing to do with the context you have to prove here? -Cadenza025 (talk) 11:08, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

What do I admit? Which article? Please specify. –Austronesier (talk) 11:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Happy_Science#cite_note-22 These media. Am I correct in assuming that you only checked for the presence of the word "cult" and not the authenticity of the article itself? Because you only need to trust the WaPo and not check the credibility of other articles, right? --Cadenza025 (talk) 02:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Asagei

[22] 清水富美加と結婚させられそうになった！？大川隆法長男「独白」報道の衝撃 (2019年2月21日) https://www.excite.co.jp/news/article/Asagei_122169/

@Politanvm @Bonadea This source "Asagei" is Japanese gossip magazine (WP:QUESTIONABLE). Why do you accept the credibility of this gossip magazine? Also, this source cites the contents of an article in Shūkan Bunshun(週刊文春), which is the currently pending in court with the organization. Isn't there a risk that this falls under WP:BIASED? What's more, Shukan Bunshun has published court-ordered apology ads in the past for publishing false articles. Moreover, starting from the next page of the apology ad, they even made a four-page excuse for ignoring the judiciary. If you are involved in the editing of this article, could you please clarify why you are leaving such problematic sources in place. --Cadenza025 (talk) 06:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

In the judgment, the court ordered that "Shukan Bunshun should apologize because it wrote a false article and hurt Happy Science and hearts of its believers," and although it rescinded the article and apologized, immediately afterwards it said, "But that article is correct," and wrote again the contents of the article without any facts, doubly hurting Happy Science and its believers. Please explain where exactly you feel the credibility of these media is. --Cadenza025 (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Asagei is only cited for the time when Hiroshi Okawa left Kōfuku no Kagaku, the rest is supported by the NYT, a reliable source. Yes, Asagei is a crappy source and should not be included here. Does anyone cling to the explicit mention of "October 2018"? If so, we indeed need a better source. –Austronesier (talk) 10:04, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Is that the only reason? Isn't the fact that Bunshun is the other party in the dispute also a reason? You can find the source here. 最高裁で「幸福の科学」勝訴確定、「週刊文春」に損害賠償と謝罪広告命令 --Cadenza025 (talk) 10:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone cling to the explicit mention of "October 2018"? No, I don't think it's necessary to include that detail. --bonadea contributions talk 11:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The above source indicates that there is a dispute between Bunshun and HappySciense, and I am putting it up to let you know about it. I'm not asking you to cite it. I think it is natural for information sent out by a disputed party to be biased, don't you agree? If you can't admit that, then I have to say that you have a problem with a neutral point of view. −−Cadenza025 (talk) 11:13, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

For the sake of neutrality, I would like the above question to be answered by three people from Politanvm Austronesier Bonadea. −−Cadenza025 (talk) 11:24, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

You took the pains to distribute the discussion over four sections. This section is called "Asagei", and we have discussed Asagei, no? –Austronesier (talk) 11:26, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

To recap, Asagei's article cites Bunshun's article, and since Bunshun is in court with HappySciense, that means there will be bias in its content. It asks three people if they agree with this very simple statement. Do you agree or not? If you don't agree with this question, then you are not neutral. --Cadenza025 (talk) 12:28, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I have reduced the number of items, but there are still many problems with this article.--Cadenza025 (talk) 12:33, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

 Fixed. To recap, the only information cited from Asagei not found in other sources was "October 2018". Since this is of peripheral interest, I have removed it. And since no other information was extracted from the Asagei article, all other points are moot. Bunshun itself might merit a separate discussion, but not in the context of the Asagei source. –Austronesier (talk) 12:51, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

kakaku.com generated contents (from Bunshun)

[23] "価格.com - 「大川宏洋」に関連する情報 | テレビ紹介情報" https://kakaku.com/tv/search/keyword=%E5%A4%A7%E5%B7%9D%E5%AE%8F%E6%B4%8B/?act=input

@Politanvm @Bonadea This source is just an automatically-aggregated content. Also, the sentence is taken from Shūkan Bunshun. (WP:BIASED). And, Shūkan Bunshun is gossip magazine too (WP:QUESTIONABLE). I'm sorry to keep repeating myself, but can you please explain why this is also being allowed to go unattended? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadenza025 (talk • contribs) 06:59, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The remaining disputed content was added here[1]. Apart from the reliability issue of these sources which has been raised: does this gossipish stuff have sufficient WP:due weight for inclusion here? It's a personal issue and IMO of peripheral interest in an article about a new religious movement. –Austronesier (talk) 13:20, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

@Politanvm @Bonadea @Austronesier Bungeishunjū, a major Japanese media, has a history of court cases with Happy Science, and is still in the midst of a legal battle, so its content can be biased. Would you agree to this? I think it is obvious that you guys want to keep the biased articles, which is not neutral.　--Cadenza025 (talk) 13:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• What I think should be changed: This sentence should be removed In an interview with Shūkan Bunshun in February 2019, Hiroshi said even though he was brought up in the faith, he had never viewed his father as a god. Hiroshi also said he left Happy Science because he felt pressured by his father to marry Fumika Shimizu, and his refusal to do so had angered his father. Happy_Science#cite_note-23
• Why it should be changed: It's taken from the Shūkan Bunshun, a Japanese media that is in court with the topic (WP:BIASED).
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): (Japanese, translation below)

"On Friday, January 23, 2012, the Supreme Court of Japan ruled in favor of our organisation in a lawsuit against Bungeishunju, the publisher of Shukan Bunshun, and a former believer (Mr. Osamu Tanemura) for damages for seriously damaging his reputation with a headline and article that had no basis in fact. This judgment confirmed that the article based on Mr. Tanemura's statement in the July 19, 2012 issue of the Shukan Bunshun was a complete fabrication and contrary to the facts." --Cadenza025 (talk) 04:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

COI: @Bonadea

I'm a Happy Science believer, so I think I fall under COI as I disclosed by myself here. This is about my "ideology". By the way, the idea of Happy Science and the idea of Nietzsche are incompatible. In fact, Happy Science has mentioned that Nietzsche was an atheist and that he has been trapped in hell for the sin of leading many astray by saying things like "God is dead". @bonadea is a philosopher, as he himself discloses, and his insistence on putting hatnote on Nietzsche's writings makes me suspect that he is devoted to Nietzsche's ideas. This is probably why he insists on Happy Science being treated as a "cult" and why he wants to show that the organization is controversial by collecting various kinds of information. If my "ideology" qualifies as a COI, then anyone who is devoted to the "ideology" of modern philosophers such as Nietzsche clearly has a COI with Happy Science. This is because modern philosophy does not recognize the existence of spiritual things and is at odds with such ideas. This is not meaningless speculation, etc. It is a fact that modern philosophical thought that denies spirituality, not only Nietzsche's, is incompatible with the thought advocated by Happy Science. Probably, he'll deny it, but unless the profile he has published is false, we can say that he has a clear conflict of interest in his Ideology. Therefore, I hereby raise Bonadea's conflict of interest allegations.