Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Serbo-Croatian

submitted	verification	final decision

	This language has been verified as eligible. The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval. If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval. A committee member provided the following comment: This project is eligible. --MF-W 02:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:

What	Value	Example / Explanation

Proposal
Language code	hbs (SIL, Glottolog)	A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name	Serbo-Croatian	Language name in English
Language name	srpskohrvatski	Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item	Q9301 - item has currently the following values: English label: Serbo-Croatian native label (P1705): srpskohrvatski jezik, hrvatskosrpski jezik, хрватскосрпски језик, српскохрватски језик, хрватскосрпски, српскохрватски, hrvatskosrpski, srpskohrvatski instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279): language, macrolanguage, modern language, pluricentric language / Western South Slavic Wikimedia language code (P424): sh writing system (P282): Gaj's Latin alphabet, Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, Cyrillic script, Latin script number of speakers, writers, or signers (P1098): 19,000,000	Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality	LTR	Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links		Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL	hbs.wikivoyage.org	langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name	Wikivodič	"Wikivoyage" in your language
Project namespace		usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace		"Wikivoyage talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads	no	Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin"). Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo	File:Wikivoyage-Logo-BHS-TEST.svg	This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone	Europe/Amsterdam	"Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces	Wikivoyage (WikivoyageHBS for local)	For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings		Anything else that should be set
submit Phabricator task. It will include everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings. After creating the task, add a link to the comment.

Proposal[edit]

Incubating a test wiki for BHS of Wikivoyage would be an effort to build a Wikivoyage for the 20+milion speakers of BHS languages, as well as opportunity for others to translate regional insights. There was never a similar project and region is exceptionally well known for tourism and natural beauties internationally (under-appreciated by local younger population), while it is also being a fairly complex to travel through because of erroding infrastructure and capacity limitations.

Due to language standard fragmentation tensions in the past 30 years existance and development of local Wiki communities was often and overly politicised rather than pragmatically focused on sustainability. This could be an effort in a more afirmative direction. Wikivoyage fairly narrow content focus and practical aspect is likely the best context to test and experiment with this. --Zblace (talk) 04:31, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

+ It would be a good gesture to have not just language code HBS as subdomain for hbs.wikivoyage.org but also DobarPut.Wikivoyage.org as it is equivalent to Bon voyage! and it is the same for all languages of BHS code - coloquially called Dobardanski language as Dobar Dan (Good Day greeting) is also the same +national identity/ownership is removed from the name. --Zblace (talk) 04:51, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely redundant. No grammar or dictionary carries colloquialisms like "naški" (lit. "ours") and "dobardanski". The official name of the language that has become established in the literature is Serbo-Croatian ("srpskohrvatski"; code: sh). Alternatively, due to the linguistic division according to ethnic lines, a Bosnian and Montenegrin variant was created, so the name Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian ("bosansko-hrvatsko-crnogorsko-srpski") was accepted (but it is not a common name). --Aca (talk) 12:25, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve never heard of “dobardanski”, but “naški” is common in the colloquial speech. Two months ago, I attended a meeting involving people from the ex-Yu area, and even the young people born in the 1990s referred to the language as “naški”.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:14, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there was always also hrvatskosrpski, as well as hrvatski and srpski...for me symbolic use of more than one way to call a language spectrum is beneficial and useful on many levels. --Zblace (talk) 08:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If we can have a subdomain redirect, the most useful one would probably be sh.wikivoyage.org, the one our other projects use. dobarput.wikivoyage.org sounds good to me as well for sharing the link around the 'net. -Vipz (talk) 20:42, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it shouldn’t be very difficult to allow readers convert the texts from Latin to Cyrilic and from Ijekavian to Ekavian. We’ll need someone from the Serbian Wikipedia to help, though.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kiril Simeonovski: I’m working on a patch that would make that possible. As for the conversion from Ijevakian to Ekavian, I haven't thought about it, but it shouldn't be too difficult. I'll start a discussion on sh.wiki about this after the deployment of that patch. --Aca (talk) 12:25, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There are more than a few references in books (just not super easy to google search dobardanski as it includes references to all good Danish stuf since it is writter dobar danski :-p) --Zblace (talk) 08:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

Support as proposer I see no risks, with no concurent projects or proposals in proximity since Bosnian had 1 page and got deleted and Serbian never developed (but if it does it can be Cyrilic and ekavica centric, while this will surely be Latin and ijekavica centric). --Zblace (talk) 05:03, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Matija, TheStefan12345, Milicevic01, Msannakoval, Alan ffm, StevenJ81, Visem, Brateevsky, Nesmir Kudilovic, and Intolerable situation: You were contributing incubator:Wy/sr some years ago, so what do you think about this idea? Good or bad? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know whether it is good or bad. --Intolerable situation (talk) 10:40, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Visem (talk) 11:42, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I'll inform the local communities and ask the contributors if they are interested in editing. --Aca (talk) 21:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Such a great idea! NaucnicaCG --NaucnicaCG (talk) 07:06, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Considering that all efforts made to develop the project in Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian failed, bringing together people to contribute to a joint Serbo-Croatian project is definitely the right way to go.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kiril Simeonovski and Aca: Then what to do with incubator:Wy/sr and that request? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see more potential for development of a Serbo-Croatian version of the project, and I don't think this should be considered on a first come, first served basis.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 02:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, more "potential" for development of a still empty project? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:16, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226 I understand that from a person outside of HBS language context it is maybe too complex to see the internal dynamics, specificities and potential of each effort within capacities and branding. However this is not a concurent effort to any.

SR Wikipedia editing community is individually the biggest in the region, but still was not advancing that effort of Wikivoyage for 8 years, so as I stated above - there needs to other experiemnt with test Wy that would be less specific and more inclussive with BHS. I would not be up for deleting Wy SR as there would still be a chance to do work there centering Cyrilic and ekavica for those who have strong preference for it.

Also I would love if you do not force any kind of antagonist tension here that was neither made nor useful in post-war region, just because someone wants to have absolutly 'clean' situation. Hope that is clear. Thank you for your engagement. --Zblace (talk) 08:15, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Zblace bhs? Are you sure that your RFL page isn't requesting Buwal? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:17, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Corrected. Thank you. -- Zblace (talk) 08:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Simeonovski. Please, also note that splitting Serbo-Croatian into four different varieties is not allowed per the current project creation rules. That's why Montenegrin Wikipedia got rejected several times and will most likely be rejected for the 5th time (see also). Generally speaking, the potential of the universal Serbo-Croatian language project is greater than that of individual varieties (due to the number of speakers). --Aca (talk) 12:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Aca "greater than"? Then why srwiki has 198,154 more articles (as of 12:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)) than shwiki? And why 775 more active users on srwiki? About the Danas news article, I'd say that they said something too strong to be useful, that request is still on hold, not rejected, it still has possible to mark eligible. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Liuxinyu970226: Given that Wikivoyage is a web-based travel guide with pages on places, not on historical figures and events whose contents may be contentious, it's highly unlikely that disputes regarding the point of view in the pages will ever emerge. That being said, it's completely unnecessary to go for four different versions of Wikivoyage and waste time and efforts on something which would look almost the same in all of them; instead, a very nice compromise would be to start up a Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage which has a much greater potential to attract people who are speakers of all varieties (note that this wouldn't be possible in the case of a Serbian Wikivoyage because the speakers of Bosnian, Croatian and Montenegrin probably won't be interested to contribute to that project).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Vacant0 (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think it is ok.--SD hehua (talk) 06:53, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Yes, this is a good idea. What a blast from the past, too :) --Matija (talk) 09:01, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sure, as part of the overall Wiki concept. There should be nothing controversial here, at least one would hope! --Igor Windsor (talk) 19:23, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Reiterating my previous comment after having done some work in the test version: It won't be Ijekavian-centric - for domestic places (where the language is spoken) it will be foremostly respecting the accents and word preferences of the region that is being written about. All other places are subject to writer's preferences. We're hopeful to sort out technical issues with the Latin-Cyrillic converter and finally support it on all Serbo-Croatian projects, including this one. Wikivoyage is a project with small interest to start with, so SH/HBS Wikivoyage is hopeful to be home to potential contributions from all over the region. -Vipz (talk) 01:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a great idea. I see many benefits from proceeding with this and few if any drawbacks. I also support the Latin-Cyrillic converter. I'm interested in participating in the project. Twsabin (talk) 14:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support has an active community; I checked the content on this wiki this morning, and I must admit it's looking good so far. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 05:11, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support active --Tmv (talk) 23:13, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]